What Suffering Can Teach Us About Living with Renee Shields Ep 74

What can suffering teach us about living?

In this deeply moving conversation, I sit down with Renee, who shares how she has navigated unimaginable loss of her first daughter, a stage four cancer diagnosis, and the uncertainty that continues to shape her life.

Rather than being defined by suffering, Renee shares what it has taught her about living with remarkable peace, purpose, and hope.

Together, we explore what it means to let go of the illusion of control, hold onto hope when the future feels uncertain, and discover an eternal perspective that changes the way we live today.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Finding peace when life doesn't go to plan. 
• Holding onto hope when the future feels uncertain. 
• Letting go of control and discovering the freedom of surrender. 
• Anchoring ourselves in faith through life's hardest seasons. 
• Seeing today through an eternal perspective. 
• Choosing to fully embrace the life we've been given
  
  

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Transcript

1:22

Welcome to the podcast, Renee. Thank you. So nice to have you here with me on the couch. Yeah, beautiful sunny couch. Yeah. It's great to have you here in Christchurch, and I'm really stoked that we've been able to make the time to have this conversation. As I said to you before we hit record, there's been many times when we've had conversations together, and I thought, "This would be a great podcast episode," but we're not recording." But- Would've been helpful for my own replaying as well, I'd imagine. Yeah. But we're here now, so, it's great. Yeah, great to have you here. You and I met about a year ago, I think. Um- Yeah, that'd be about right. Yeah. Yeah. My trip down here. Yeah. Yeah. Um, why don't you just introduce yourself? Tell people a little bit about you, and then we'll dive in. Um, so my name is Renee. I live in Nelson. I grew up down south, and settled in Nelson a long time ago now, probably about 13 years ago. And I am quite a, I've had a, quite an interesting background. I've done lots of different jobs and stuff. But I grew up in a Christian family, and that'll be probably a bit of the theme that we talk about today. But, um, when I talk about my identity, that's a big part of it now. And I'm a creative person, and, um, but I've also had my fair share of hardships, so, uh, we'll be talking about my cancer journey today. And also, uh, my husband and I lost our first daughter, uh, in childbirth, uh, my first child, and so that was a really big part of our lives as well. So that may come up, but yeah. I'm 35 and got two two wee kids at home, a three and a half year old and a two year old, so my life is very full. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm basically, at the moment, I'm a stay-at-home mom, and f- my job is to stay alive. Yes. So those two things keep me pretty busy, and I have lots of other fun creative pursuits that I do in my spare time. Why don't we start off with, do you wanna talk a little bit about what you've been walking through recently- Yep and that journey, and we'll go from there. Yeah. Um, I, like I mentioned, d- it's sort of important to, for the cancer journey, but- We've had a really interesting journey to parenthood, and we had an easy pregnancy with my first daughter, and then had a really shock. She died during childbirth, and it was really traumatic. It was no one's fault, but it was one of those life-altering situations where it sort of just changed the course of our lives forever because- Mm w- just a lot of innocence was lost in that. Um, we went on to have two more children really quickly. So she was born in 2021, and so I had three children in four years. And so that's a lot on someone's body, and it's also a lot of grief to carry whilst going through a lot. So, um, it sort of sets the scene for me getting diagnosed for cancer because, um, not long after our third baby, so our, um, our wee boy was born, I just never really recovered very well from that pregnancy, and I was not in a good place mentally either. He was a difficult baby. I had two under two. Mm. We'd just moved into a new house, and I wasn't getting a lot of sleep. He cried a lot, and I'd, I, our f- sorry, our, our daughter, Lena, she was a different type of child, and she was really, really easy, and I was probably just so grateful to have her. We talked about that before. Mm. I was just so grateful to have a healthy, you know, noisy, warm baby in my arms that I just was really, and the rest of it didn't matter. Mm. Um, but then sort of life's little troubles creep in, you know. They just, it was just a difficult time, and I wasn't feeling great physically. But as time went on, I just really wasn't doing great, but it was all very vague. And so I went through this process of seeing GPs, and it just took quite a long time to get a diagnosis. But eventually in May last year, so 2025 I ended up having a hysterectomy, um, which was really stressful actually. I, we wanted more children, um, and that felt like a really cruel end to... Like, it sort of was like a bit of a rubbish sandwich, right? Like, we had- Yeah this catastrophic beginning to having our family, and then I had the chance of having other children ripped off me as well because of a potential ca- a potential cancer threat. And at that point, they thought it was quite manageable, and a hysterectomy would have fixed it. Um, I was feeling terrible, and it wasn't until they opened me up that they found all these other tumors. And I then- Had to wait for two weeks. So I had the really, really big surgery, which was just done on day stay because it was meant to be small. And then I waited for two weeks for a CT scan, and that came back showing that I had cancer originating in my pancreas. It was all through my pelvis, all through my liver, and eventually they saw that it was also in my spine. And like one of the s- the tumors in my pelvis was 10 centimeters big, and one of them was wrapped around my ureter, which was the cord that goes from your kidney to your bladder, and it had completely strangled it. Mm. And, you know, I was functioning quite well considering, but the initial diagnosis said I wasn't able to have chemo because of the state of my liver on the CT scan and that I would Basically, I was to go home and get my affairs in order and, and die. Um- So that was pretty bad, to be honest. And really weird week because of it. I did get some blood tests that said I've, I was sort of, my body was coping a bit better than expected, and then I got to see the oncologist and they said, "We can, we can we've got this window where we can give you some very, very harsh chemo and see what it does. Y- you're only gonna get a couple of extra months, but that's it." You know, like it was, we can knock it back to buy you time, but you're gonna be sick. And so, but I did have this week where I believed I wasn't, I had no options. And so it was like, "Right. Well, that's it," my, my education, I did a nursing degree, so I had Basically when the doctor said, so we went to see him, um, the day I had the CT scan, I had an appointment that night, and it was with my gynecologist, and we went to see him and he just said to me, "We couldn't have asked for, like, we couldn't have hoped for a, like, worse scan. Like, it, it was really bad, Renee." And I was like, "Oh, okay. What do you mean? Is it from somewhere else?" He's like, "Yeah." And I don't know a lot about cancer. I don't know anyone that's had it. I don't have a single family member in my family tree that's had it. And he just said, "Renee, it's pancreatic." And it's that, like, two things I knew about cancer is you didn't really want to have ovarian or pancreatic cancer. Like, the five-year outcomes are the worst, and I just, like, shattered. And my husband was kind of like, "Well, what do, what do you mean? Like, what does that mean?" And I just remember looking at him being like, "You and I just have totally different understandings in this moment of what that means." And then he went on to say, like, "Basically, you're gonna die." Um, and so we had this crazy week where I had to ring My parents were looking after my children. I had to wait for them to put them to bed and then call them to say that their daughter was gonna die, you know? I had to ring my best friend, which I would have loved to have done that in person, but it was just like, how can you do that? You know, I just couldn't leave Aaron that night. And I had to ring my brother, and this sh- like, it was just awful. It was actually just awful. And you never, never imagine yourself being in a situation like that. No. No. And actually something that, there's a few really key memories from that week. Um, we actually packed up and went to, our favorite place is a little campground in Pakur. So we went away for the night with the kids, and it was really nice. But, um, before that, I just remember my husband telling me how grateful he was that I had a faith, which is really interesting 'cause he's, he's not a, um, a Christian. And it was, like, a really interesting comment and at the time I thought- I'm so grateful I have faith, because for me, even though I, I had Even though that diagnosis was a shock, I'd felt bad, like I was feeling unwell. Mm. So I kind of had this impending sense of doom that had been building for a while, and I'd said to my husband at one point, "I actually am really worried about making it through this month." We, we'd had a bit of a argument about him wanting to paint the house and wanting me to help, and I just said to him like, "You and I have got really different priorities. I'm really scared." And I didn't know where it was coming from, but I just felt like I was dying. So even though the diagnosis was a shock, I, I'd sort of already tossed up with that fear a little bit, and had had, you know, restless nights kind of just grappling with that possibility, um, even though it didn't feel like it would ever happen. But when we did get told that obviously for me, having lost a baby, and like Rossi was our daughter's name, and she was the heaviest of my three children, and sh- I was 41 plus six, so I was like overdue. And she was perfect, 'cause I had a C-Sec or a crash cesarean, where they sort of knock you out and give you a cesarean and try and get the baby out really quickly. And so when she came out, she just looked like a sleeping baby, and I just thought, "Man, I might get to meet her sooner than I thought." And so, like part of me was a little bit happy. Yeah. Which is, it's, it's really interesting conversation, because I'm doing everything in my willpower to stick around for my children here, because they need me. And but Rossi, like it was this really beautiful thought I just had that I was like, "Oh, but I, like at least I get to see her." So those, like, yeah, just really took the sting out of that diagnosis. Mm. Which is quite interesting. Um, but yeah, that's sort of something I've thought about a lot since then. You've been, a fierce advocate for yourself and your health on- Mm on this journey. And, um, tell us, like, a little bit about that and where you're at today, over a year on. Yeah. So here I am a year on. Yeah. Which is pretty miraculous, actually. It is very miraculous. I shouldn't say pretty. I s- sometimes downplay things, so take that. It is a miracle, isn't it? Yeah, it is a miracle. I did really well with some of the treatments that I had. Very unexpected. I've done e- excellent with the chemotherapy and stuff, and kept very well. I've done a lot to help with that, but I just think a lot of that is just divine protection as well. Like, I I'm not sure why I'm here still, which speaks a lot to, God's work in it. But I've also done... I've been very proactive in my own treatment, so I've been very involved, and I probably am the driver of my own treatment. And I, because of my background in education and nursing, I... Which I haven't worked in forever, by the way. I did, like, only did two years. But I just have quite a good understanding of how the medical system works compared to someone who, doesn't have that background. And I've just taken a real strong interest in my diagnosis and treatment plan and stuff, and that's been quite helpful. And I've probably learned to enjoy it the learning- Mm which has been quite cool. Like, I'm on, I'm on all the Facebook forums, and I'm out there researching. And I'm like, I talk to all sorts of different people, and- Mm I've read lots of case studies, and I just immersed myself in AI at the beginning, too. Like, I've actually m- many times said that this is... Oh, like, if this had happened to me five years ago, I'd long be gone. But- Mm I think just because there's been the tools available to kind of scour the world for information. Yes. Um, it also, not just information, but I was able to progr- like, program it to feed me hope. So, like, I went looking for all of the survivors with my diagnosis, which the the five-year survival rate for my type of diagnosis is between 1 and 2%. Mm. It's really, really bad, so it's, like, worst possible outcome. It's basically the worst kind of diagnosis you can get, really. So but I went looking for those people, and AI helped with that a lot, but as did, like, platforms like TikTok specifically. Yeah. Uh, I joined that. I'm not normally into that, but joined it because it was really easy to be- get, to get fed those survivor stories. And those are not often captured in case studies and stuff. So I've had this really cool journey of, like- Just immersing myself in my care as opposed to sort of feeling victimized by it, which has been quite helpful for giving me a purpose Okay, we're back. We just had to pause temporarily because I've just had a baby, and he is here sitting next to us while we're recording this. Yeah. It's not us making those noises. Um, so you may hear him, and that's what that sound is. Um, so are there any, is there anything that you want to speak to around, um, how you've approached your cancer treatment and the different approaches? Yeah, I get asked quite a lot about what I've done. I have a Instagram account, and I get lots of messages and things. So, I sort of have thought, I've done a, I've done a lot of things. So I've done, I've tried almost all sorts of modalities to help with my treatment. But I've boiled it down to a couple of things that I found really helpful. So I did have chemotherapy. It was very intensive chemotherapy. Most people don't make it to the end of it because it's really difficult on your, you know, GI system and, um, has lots of side effects. But I found, um, a couple of things super helpful with that. One of them was fasting. So I did five days of a fasting mimicking diet for every, um, session of chemo I had, and I did chemo on day three. Um, it's following a certain protocol, and I'm happy to share that with you if anyone reaches out. But what that did was really helped with side effects and it, I just kept incredibly well through that period considering how I was meant to be or warned I would be. So I think that was massive. Um, I'm gonna Like, these are obviously very, like, tangible things that people can do, so I think it's just kind of worth sharing those. Yeah. Um, the other thing is I've taken a few off-label or, or repurposed medications. Some of those are prescription medications that are used for other things that have shown promise with preventing or sort of dampening down metastases. So, um, I see an integrative GP for that, and there are a few around New Zealand. There's a good book called How to Starve Cancer, and the woman who runs that, J. McClelland, her website lists those GPs. You can find them, and they're inexpensive. They're $5 for your prescription, and, like, one of them's metformin, another one's doxycycline, really available medications. And they, um, I think particularly doxycycline's been really helpful for me. It's shown early promise in pancreatic cancer. But also there are another, another drug called ivermectin, which is a little bit divisive. However, there, I saw it specifically, um, improve my liver function tests in a two-week period, which I was told it wasn't, wouldn't do, um, by my oncologist, but actually it was- I went from having quite deranged liver function to really almost normal liver function- Wow within a two-week period while having chemo, which is meant to hurt it. Yeah, that's incredible, isn't it? Yeah, it was incredible. Yeah. And so, um, I also didn't show any resistance to my chemotherapy over eight sessions, which is quite rare. So resistance is the biggest concern with chemotherapy. And, like, my oncology the plan for me is to use chemotherapy when I have flare-ups. And if that'll stop working, and I'm... then I'll die. So for me, it's really important that the chemotherapy is effective- and we get the biggest bang for buck. And I didn't. I had an over 50% drop in my tumor markers every single round. Yeah. Wow. And I think those medications really help with that. So I think it's really worth doing some research. And they're very low risk, so I wouldn't recommend that, um, unless I was comfortable with that. And I have done lots of debating, you know- Yeah on the decisions I've made. Um, so those are two things, repurposed drugs and fasting I've found very effective. I do things like vitamin C infusions and stuff as well. I'm on the fence with that, but there's a lot of evidence around. The other thing I think is integral to survival is hope and your head space around your day-to-day life and just continuing to live. Firstly, when I look at you, you know, the person sitting in front of me, you radiate health. You look incredibly well, and you are well- Thank you which is in- incredible. So I just absolutely wanna honor you and the journey that you've walked over the last year or so, and just the courage and the strength that you've shown to, to be here and to be so well. It's just amazing. And the other thing that I really recognize in you, Renee, is the joy that you have- Yeah that is not dependent upon your circumstances, and I feel like that's really linked to the hope that you feel. So tell me a bit about what creates that for you. Yeah, for sure. And just to your comment on me looking well, we haven't mentioned that I'm on day three of a five-day radiation course. So, like, I'm receiving radiation at, at Christchurch Hospital at the moment because I've had a flare-up in my back, and that's co- We can talk to that soon. But it's not nice, the treatment, but my body has just... Man, my body has let me down significantly in my life, but it is also making me so proud. Mm. Like, our bodies are incredible. Yeah. Yeah, so just, yeah, just to speak to that piece. But in terms of hope, like, I touched on that earlier about potentially not having the sort of fear of death that other people have. I've got a, a daughter in heaven, and- Even when we had her, I don't know, my faith didn't really go anywhere. I kind of got a bit stuck. I was like, "Do we have a God?" Like- do we have a good God? I don't know, because why would this happen to me?" And I sort of decided that if I was to give up my faith, then it would all be in vain. Like, her death might potentially just be in vain. I would've lost a baby and my faith. Yeah. And so I was like, "You know what?" And then people tell you you might lose your marriage because, you know, child loss is a, that's an outcome from child loss. It's quite, quite frequently happens. And so I just thought, "Look, I'm gonna hang onto this God. Like, I don't know if I trust you completely, but I, I do believe you're there, and I, I do believe you're good." And so when I got this diagnosis, I just thought, "Wow- You know, here I am again in this terrible situation but like, I just all of a sudden felt this peace, and I didn't feel scared. I didn't feel fear, and I, I thought, like, "No, actually, okay, I've got nowhere to run now. I've n- I've got no way of fixing this. I can't go and see fertility associates. I can't, have another baby to fix the problem." I was like, "I've got nowhere to run. Like, I am told that I'm certainly gonna die from this, and that's it." And I'm like, "Okay, well, if that happens, what The worst case is I lose my life, and that's it, and there's nothing after that." But I just actually just don't believe that to be true, and like best case for me is staying alive. Next best case is dying and seeing my beautiful daughter, who I miss and would love to know. And I had this, I just have had the certainty of a good outcome either way for myself. And don't get me wrong, uh, leaving my children behind makes me feel sick, and I worry for their future. But having this view of eternity in heaven has been massive for me. Like, I just It helps me. It pulls me out of the moments that are just totally unbearable. And that there are those moments, like, all the time, and more so now than there has been even at the start. I think when terrible things happen to you, you sort of get into that whole, like, action mode, right? Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's a little bit easier to sort of take action, 'cause you're like, "No." I don't know. It's just that crisis response, and that's something I'm usually quite strong in anyway. But it's this long-term illness situation I'm dealing with now- that where I've had more of those spirals, and it's been harder to face more treatment, like coming down here for this radiation. I've had a bit of pain in my back. My spine's misbehaving a little bit. Um, most of my cancer's under control, but there's just a little bit in my back that I'm struggling with, and it's caused a lot of pain. And so I have had days where I'm like, "This is exhausting." I'm quite tired of it. But, um, but I have this hope for the future that no matter what happens to me, I'm going to be okay, my children are gonna be okay, and my husband's gonna be okay. And that means I don't have to worry about dying. Like, it's off the table, that bit. Like, if that happens, fine, but I get to be fully present and living, and that has been the best gift. Wow. Wow. Well, and it means I can be fully present to try and live longer. Mm. Like, I can research, and I can say, "Well, who know?" I Who knows what can happen? You don't know. Like, who, who am I even who are the oncologists to tell you that you've got six months? Like, that's what they said to me, and I'm here now. I'm doing really well. The radiation oncologist the other day said, "It's really weird that your cancer hasn't blown up everywhere else yet." It's like- Thanks, man. Love that. But- I think, you know, what you're saying is, like, when you address that fear of death, you get to take all the energy that fear sucks- Yeah out of you- Yeah into living in the present. And that's what I s- I see you're so full of that. You're so full of joy. You're full of peace. Yeah. You're full of living. You live life in a really full and abundant way. And I think that's where having a faith, it's that hope of heaven, you know- Yeah that we talk about- Yeah in the Christian faith, is we know that, I was, when I was thinking ahead to our conversation today, I was thinking of that verse in Colossians that says, "Set your mind on things above- Yeah not on earthly things." And- Yeah I think we get so fixated on this life. Mm. Everything feels very major in this life. Yeah. You know, what people think of us how we're perceived- Yeah you know, how successful we might be- Yeah what we acquire. This life can s- can seem very major, and I think that- Yeah when we have that eternal perspective, when we realize this is actually just the temporary life- Yeah you know, when we have a faith, when we've placed our faith in Jesus, we know our future's secure, and that actually the, the true life, the eternal life is the one to come, and that's actually the real life. That's- Yeah the one that goes on after this. And I think having that hope of heaven, it really helps to keep this life in perspective, doesn't it? Yeah, it takes the pressure off. Takes the pressure off, yeah. Like, for me, I, I feel an immense pressure to enjoy every single moment with my children, even though they're th- three and a half and two, and it's extremely hard some days. Yeah. And like, for example, I'm down here having treatment, and I don't wanna feel guilty from being away from them. Like, it, and but the pressure that this life brings on all of us- but especially when you're unwell- is really hard. And then there's that pressure of identity. For a while I was grappling with, do I wanna be a stay-at-home mom or have a career, and, and who am I, and am I justifying myself as a independent person if I don't have my own income? Oh, like, what a load of crock that is now. Yeah. For me, it's like, oh, because I'm filled with cancer well, not at the moment, but, you know, like, I'm a sick person in the eyes of the world. I'm not contributing positively as a taxpayer. Like, I have all these things that in my head, like, I've received so much generosity from the people around me and haven't been able to give anywhere near amount back. And I've had this, I've had to wrestle with my identity, even. So having that, like, eternal mindset's really taken that, uh, that pressure and that weight of that identity off me, shifted it. And that's really massive when you're grappling, pa- particularly when your body has failed. Like, I think- And so I think it's okay to say those words because, like, you know, I, I grew a healthy baby but just could not get her out and that's a really heavy thing to carry. And then for me to just randomly have this extremely rare pancreatic cancer for someone my age, it, very hard not to take that personally. And so to give that up and to give up the worries of identity in my other areas of my life has actually been quite freeing. Yeah. It's weirdly freeing being in this position, and I didn't expect that. And part of that is having that faith that actually I'm uni- like I am a critically flawed individual, but I am loved by God. And I've got a future in heaven. I don't need to know the details of that. I don't need to know when it's coming, but I have that certainty, and then I can just be present, and I battle with that daily, but it is there, and it's certainly helped. And I remember talking to my psychologist, 'cause they give you one with the oncology department, and when I talked to her about, I was like, "I just don't really f- I'm not really worried about the death bit, you know, I'm worried for my family, and I just wanna stick around a bit longer 'cause I really like living." And she just said, "I am so relieved to hear that." And I said, "What do you mean?" She's like, "Oh, man, the death bit, we, like, can spend months talking to people about that." And she was like, "It's so good to hear that you have, like, a Christian faith and you're not- and that you've, you've got that bit-" Yeah sorted." And this, she's not by any means got a faith herself. Yeah. I just thought it was a really interesting comment. Um, but it's really helped. Like, I do feel a lot of freedom. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, I see that freedom in you. I re- actually, it reminds me when my dad passed at the end of last year my sister and I led him to faith, which was just you know, such a privilege and an honor. Yeah. The experience of, you know, supporting him in his in his cancer journey. And, um, when he called to tell us, we were up in, um, Kapiti for my sister's 40th, and they couldn't make it 'cause Dad had really taken a turn. And he FaceTimed us from hospital to say, you know, 'cause we were f- fiercely advocating for his healing. Yeah. You know, and he did amazing 'cause he was given six months to live, and he lived for five. It was incredible. Yeah. And he called us to say, "Okay, I think this is it." And that, that was the first time we'd really heard him sort of- Yeah admit that, you know, some would say defeat- Yeah but admit, okay, this is- Yeah it was an acceptance. This is where I'm- Yeah this is where I'm heading. And we looked at him... Oh, it makes me emotional to think about it. It's all right. Mm-hmm. My sister and I said, "But Dad, you know where you're heading." Yeah. "And you know that it's paradise, and you know there's- Yeah no more suffering, and you don't have to fight anymore." And I'll never forget the look on his face. The absolute certainty he had about where he was heading. Yeah. He had, didn't have fear. No. And it's like ultimate rest. He knew where he was going. Like- Rest, yeah and the, the concept of rest to me- Yeah like I'm tired. Yeah. Yeah. I've got, don't worry, like I've got a lot of, like my desire to live is here in perpetuity. But that rest, that promise of rest in that moment- like I can just only imagine the welcome relief for that. Yeah. And just that peace he mu- he must have had. What a privilege to have daughters like you, by the way. But Yeah. It was it's, yeah, just a moment I'll never forget. And, um, it cemented this whole idea of living for eternity- Yeah not just for this life. But there's been conversations you and I have had in recent months, and I see that freedom in you. Like, you walk in that freedom. And I think whether we recognize it or not, I think a lot of us are actually seeking that. We want to- feel free, but we get stuck in patterns of control. So we think, "If I can just sort this out- Yeah if I can nail the five-year plan, if I can, make this certain amount of money, or- Yeah have, control this outcome or make this happen in this way, then I'll be able to rest. Then I'll be able to find peace." But control isn't the pathway- No to peace and rest, is it? Even though our mind really convinces us of that, 'cause I love to be in control. Yeah. And I grapple with that dance between control and surrender all the time. What has helped you in that, in the, in being able to 'Cause I see you walk in real surrender around- Yeah this journey and the freedom that that's created for you. Well, the surrender's a really important word in that, 'cause that's, that is what it is for me. And it's, it's intentional on my behalf, but also, like my diagnosis, I think if it had been like stage one, two, or even three, I would've had this real like, "I can do this." Yeah. But I just got given this just diabolical diagnosis that was just like It, I already knew, the only thing I knew about cancer is you really didn't want stage four pancreatic, you know? And the fact I got it was almost funny, 'cause it was like, there is nowhere for you to go now, Renee. Like you Medicine really will fail you. That's it. You can't help yourself. You don't have the tools. You don't have the strength. You don't have the science. You don't have the cure. Like, I have, I had nowhere else to go. And so for me it was like, "Righto, God." I've done this last four years on my own with the subsequent pregnancies, and I've, not on my own, but I didn't lean into that whole surrender piece. I just, I had plans for everything- and I dis- disassociated basically. And th- then I just was like, "I have, I have no other, other option." Yeah. I'd, I just have to come to God, and I just prayed every day. I still do multiple times a day just- Just I have no idea what's happening here. This is your, I don't know what you're wanting from me in this. I often pray for healing, but I sometimes don't. Like, I pray, I just pray that I'm able to be present and just go with whatever happens with this because... And so I've just really leaned into that comfort and that sense of peace and that sense of joy and just being able to forget the small stuff and just actually focus on trying to live. And, like, surrender's a huge part of that. There's been so much. I have tried to control lots of things. I'm not gonna pretend I haven't. Like I was even talking before about I wanna go New York next month and see an oncologist over there and blah, blah, blah. Classic Renee making action plans. But what part of that is that, that might fall through. I might come back with nothing. And I now feel this peace over that, like I cannot do everything, and I can't, I can't do any of this without, like, God's strength. Like, it's, yeah, I don't know. I've... It's, I'm just, I feel useless without a purpose that carries me- into the next life. Like, this is, I am just stuck bobbing around. And but that has brought so much joy, too. I think about all the tiny little problems I used to have. And they seem- They seemed huge insignificant now. Well, they were huge at the time. Yeah. And now they're just oh, I can't believe I, I can't believe I got so upset about that or- And at the time that they feel big and life gets... You know how sometimes those little things creep up, or they creep into your marriage or- like, there's a bit of, like, just resentment that builds on stuff that feels really huge and sort of defining at the time. And then all of that, like, just completely shed away when I got sick. And that's where there's that scripture, God works all things for good- Yeah for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Yeah. And, it can seem a bit cliche when people will say something good will come out of this. Yeah. It's, it's, can feel like it's minimizing just the enormity- Yeah, absolutely of what you're walking through. But you can see that in your journey, can't you, that- Yeah The freedom that you walk in is something, as I said earlier, that I think a lot of people are craving and really wanting, and- Yeah you've been able to access that place. I think one of the reasons surrender can feel hard for people also is we don't know who we're surrendering to. No. Yeah. And a, a big shift for me was moving from the sort of impersonal spirituality of, um- yeah, sort of a, a higher power to really understanding, you know, coming to faith- Yeah and really coming to know the character of God, His goodness, His faithfulness- Mm. Oh the way He provides, the way He protects, you know, there's nothing in the, in the Bible that says you're going to live a problem-free life. In fact, it kinda says- No "Expect problems." Yep, 100%. Yeah. That's really important. You know? And so, "Expect problems, but know that I'll be with you," that's what the Bible is saying, is you're not going to be able to avoid those things because we live in a fallen world. Mm. This is not what God designed for us. He designed a very different world for us, but man went their own way, you know? Yeah. And it brought in darkness, and so sickness and disease is a consequence of that, isn't it? Yeah. So we will have problems in this life- Mm but when we have a faith, when we understand God's character, we know that He is good in spite of the bad that we can experience, and He's faithful to us. He's faithful to walk with us through that. And, I've really seen that in my life over the last year. Just experiencing a lot of grief last year. I had a miscarriage, and then my dad passed away, and it just felt like a heavy year. Mm. And it can make you question, "God, where were you?" Mm. Like you were saying, where were you in those moments? Like, why d- why did you let that happen? I think that's a natural response to those- Yeah things that can happen. And it took me on quite a bit of a soul-searching thing of like not, definitely not turning away from God, but really questioning, "Why didn't you do something about this?" Mm. And really where I've come to, I think i- it's we don't, we won't always know. It's like God is not the creator of our suffering. I think that's the most important thing to understand, is he doesn't create the suffering- Yep to teach us a lesson he doesn't create the suffering, but he will bring goodness out of it, and he promises to walk with us through it. And I think when we can know that, when we know the character of God, it feels easier to surrender. It's not always, it's not- Mm it's not easy because I think our natural tendency is to want to control and to be in charge, but it feels easier to surrender when we know who we're surrendering to, and we know, you know, that this is a God that sees me as his child and, and wants to take care of me. Yeah. Ab- absolutely, and, like, God's got a good sense of humor. Yeah. Like, that's a funny thing for me to say, but I quite like funny stuff. Yeah. And I have been humbled some. Like I was saying to you earlier about my gi- I was in an oncology meeting yesterday, and it went terribly. My expectations totally weren't met, and I got my hair stuck on the Velcro on the wall from the blood pressure cuff, and I was, like, wrestling, trying to pull my hair off the wall, and the oncologist tried to help, and it was just so embarrassing. But, like, there's this thing where I've just sort of seen glimpses of God in these really bizarre, hilarious moments sometimes- Mm and amongst all of this chaos and suffering where I've thought, "Oh, wow, this is, like- what it must be like to watch us, yeah. And to care for us and to love us so much, and amongst this world we've created for ourselves where we've completely locked him out. Yeah, absolutely. And I totally agree with you on the God is not the author of our suffering. And, and we Like I- I've actually ha- had that mentality. I think after Rossie died, I thought, "Well, why wouldn't th- that happen to me?" You know, like, it's really hard when you ask yourself, "Why has this happened?" But I guess I've started to think about things as like, "Well, why wouldn't they?" Statistics particularly I find hard. If someone tells you it's a one in 100 chance that you'll die on the table, uh, and with an anesthetic, just a routine anesthetic, most people would say, "99% chance I'm fine." But I've always felt a little bit warped since my daughter died- Mm on that. And like, you know, you think of 100 of your best friends in the room, and that's one of them gone, right? That's your wedding. And all of a sudden 1% felt like a really big number to me. And we c- we're almost guaranteed suffering as Christians. Yeah. And but the, but by participating in that we're also g- guaranteed that richness that comes from not owning the responsibility of that. Yes. Yeah. It's really nice. Like- You know, like, uh, and that's that whole storing up your treasure in heaven as opposed to on earth. And picking up your cross and following him. Mm. Like, there's actually just this real sense, like, that freedom and just that surrender. You don't have to be responsible for it all. And that's, that's freedom. That is freedom, You know? And I think, and that, what that also does is, like, kind of circling back to that hope. God works in the 1%. Doesn't he? Yeah. Like, and I've learnt that, yes, I might be the 1% that gets struck down a couple of times. I haven't even mentioned this today, but I went through, um, a separation in my early 20s. Like- Mm I was married young, and it was awful. And it's this human failure component, and it was... And so I feel like I've had this, these big things in my life and... but if you know that thing, that bad things can happen, you can be the 1% in the bad, that also leaves opportunity for good things to happen in the 1%. So even though I've got, like, a 1% chance of making it to five years, that feels like a big, wide-open road to me compared to most people. And that is exciting, and that's for me where the hope comes from. I'm like, "Oh, man," i'm not like, "I have to be that 1%." I'm like, "God can work in that 1%." Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And that's often where it's like where sort of certainty ends or possibility ends, that's when God begins. Yes. You know? He works in that space. Yep. Yeah. So oncologist says, "You're going to die of this." "You've got a couple of months, maybe a year max." And you're like, "Cool." That part of the relay race is done Yes God picks up the baton Tag team And here we are Yeah Past that, pa- past that point. And now, and the, uh, there is beautiful freedom when you move past a prognosis date. That was really important for me. Yes. I got past when they said I was gonna die, and now it's like the sky's the limit. It might only be two months, but it might be 20 years. And that is so, that is a space I live in, and that's probably the best illustration for me is uncertainty now has become comfortable 'cause it might mean life. Wow. That's profound. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember saying to a friend recently, I hope she doesn't mind she's pregnant with her first baby, I said, "You know what? I am, like, bobbing around in the ocean right now, and I cannot make plans. I can't plan. I can make, like, little trips to Auckland plans, but I can't plan a new job. I can't think about m- joining the PTA when my daughter starts school in a year and a half. I just don't know where I'm gonna be and what's gonna be happening, and I just bob around like a cork in the ocean," is what my oncologist called me. But and she said, "Oh my goodness, that's my worst nightmare," my friend. And I was like, "I suppose it is if you're if you're a plan maker," which I have been, but I've got here it was like a car crash all at once- Yeah but then I've sort of, adjusted, and it's good. It's okay. Like, it's okay. And again, there's freedom in that. There's peace in that. Yeah L- letting go of the idea that you have to have certainty in order to f- to feel peaceful or to have- Yeah joy or for life to have meaning here. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And meaning, that's important. I think purpose and meaning, you know, we, we all crave that. And we can find that from various parts of our lives. And for me, I really resisted being the sick cancer girl to deliv- like for that to deliver meaning to my life. But actually, it isn't defining me, but if I stop fighting it, it could create a huge amount of meaning, and part of that's talking to you- you know, here on this podcast. It- We're all sick and suffering. People are all failing. Yeah. The medical system is made up of people. Yeah. If y- your diagnosis comes in late and you're all of a sudden stage four, that's not God. That's a series of humans missing things- who are doing their best. And that's you missing symptoms because you're doing your best- in other areas of your life, you know? Like, I've just learnt I don't go screaming to God, "What are you doing?" Because p- it's us, it's us who have done that. Mm. And it's, that's just life. But I go screaming to God can you be with me here?" And that is, there's just so much comfort in that. It's the comfort. Yeah. It's the ultimate comfort, isn't it? Yeah. And I don't know, I do not know how people journey through this without having a faith, and I think a lot of people do come to faith, actually. Yeah. Cancer's quite cruel in, in many ways, like in pain and, you know, what it strips from you and what it does to your identity. And so I think having this redemption of that pain, like having an avenue for redemption of it is just, is life-giving, as opposed to everything else, which is just like the dwindling of your life or your life force, you know? Mm. So it feels like it just slowly sucks it out of you, being sick. But having s- having a me- a way of like bringing that back and bringing meaning and purpose and identity back is really, it's really important for dignity, and yeah, continue- continuing to live properly. Yeah. You are incredible. Honestly, it's a absolutely extraordinary journey that you've walked. You have just so mu- like, such a depth of wisdom, that you're offering- Thank you to people through this experience, and you're so generous in the way that you are willing to offer that wisdom to other people. And so I just really wanna acknowledge you and thank you for that. And I just know God's doing good things through you, and he's not done yet, and that, you know- Yeah there's so much more ahead for you, Renee. So thank you so much for being willing to share your story. Is there anything else that you wanna share before we finish up? Thank you for that. Well, I think it's really important to note that I'm also an incredibly petty, silly individual. So I, I might, I ha- there has been a lot of wisdom gained through this, but also, like, there's been an element of just, you know, I have good friends and an incredible family. And- Yeah I actually need to just for a second acknowledge my m- most brilliant husband, who has enabled me to fully be myself, and, um, yeah, just focus on my healing- and our family. Yeah. And so I would like to honor him. He's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, yep. But thank you. I've, um, really appreciated your support. Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. I hope, like me, you'll carry some of Renee's wisdom with you long after this episode ends. Her story is such a beautiful reminder that peace isn't found when life becomes more certain, but it can be found right in the middle of uncertainty, right in the middle of life's biggest challenges. If this conversation encouraged you, I'd love for you to subscribe to Steep Your Soul so you don't miss future episodes. And if you have a moment, leaving a review is one of the best ways you can help these conversations reach more people. I'd also love to hear what resonated with you. Come and find me over on Instagram, @annabelmatson, and let me know what stayed with you from today's episode. If you'd like to connect with Renee or send her a message, I've included her Instagram details in the show notes below. If you know someone who could use this conversation today, I'd encourage you to share it with them. And if you'd like to learn more about my coaching, you can visit annabelmatson.com. You'll find the link in the show notes. Thanks so much for being here, and I'll see you next time on Steep Your Soul.